Louis Brown, an African American man, organized a “rosary walk” in Washington, D.C., in response to the death of George Floyd. Brown, who is the executive director of health care nonprofit Christ Medicus Foundation, joins The Daily Signal Podcast to discuss why he did this, and the importance of prayer in these times.

We also cover these stories:

  • House Democrats proposed sweeping changes to America’s police departments Monday in response to the killing of George Floyd.
  • The Minneapolis City Council said it would disband the city’s police department. 
  • Sen. Mitt Romney, R-Utah, marched with protesters in Washington, D.C. 

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Kate Trinko: Joining us today is Louis Brown, who is the executive director of the Christ Medicus Foundation, a Catholic health care nonprofit. Lewis, thanks for joining us.

Louis Brown: Thanks for having me on Kate.

Trinko: All right. So last week I got an email from a friend that Louis was organizing a prayer walk this weekend in the aftermath of George Floyd’s death. I went on the march myself. I personally found it really inspiring, but Louis, I wanted to ask you, why did you feel inspired to organize a prayer walk?

Brown: That’s a good question. I felt inspired to organize the prayer walk, the Rosary walk, because it’s something that is meaningful, has real power behind it, but something that can take some of the political extremes out of it, and really focus on the reality of faith and the reality of God’s power to really move mountains.

At the Christ Medicus Foundation, we do a lot of nitty-gritty work within health care, but we’re first and foremost a Christian Catholic organization that believes in the supernatural power of God to really heal.

I’m an African American man. I went to a historically black law school and I’ve gone through nearly three decades now of being aware of and dealing with issues of police misconduct or police brutality, much of which is racially motivated that I’ve seen, not all of it, and maybe not even most of it, but a lot of what I’ve seen growing up, and work needs to be done there immediately.

At the same time, however, on a person-to-person level, at the same time, as we deal with things on a natural level and say, “Hey, police misconduct, police brutality, particularly against African Americans and against anyone, it needs to stop.”

At the same time as we say that, right now, we also really need to recognize that these issues are issues of the heart and a failure of love and a deprivation of love.

There’s a spiritual realm, which is from where I reach out into everything. As much as we have to change policy and change law and have reforms—and I’ll leave it to others to navigate what exactly those reforms should be—we also need a change in hearts and we need healing.

I take it as an answer to prayer that Saturday night after we did the Rosary walk and even yesterday and so far today, as far as I can see, peace has reigned. That’s part of what we prayed for. We prayed for peace and peace has reigned in many of the cities across the country.

There’s a way to do this, but it needs to be done in a nonviolent matter that respects the rule of law. So there’s power there.

I believe in healing, I believe we have to do the natural things when it comes to policy and law and reform, but we also have to do the supernatural things, if we really believe in faith that can move mountains, and we really recognize that the fundamental problem that we’re dealing with, at the very core, is the problem of hearts and minds that need to change.

This was a way to attempt to beg God’s mercy, to move those mountains and to change those hearts.

Trinko: How did the Rosary walk go, in your mind?

Brown: It went really well. It’s very simple, not meant to be a political event, simply intended to be an exercise of faith of particularly of Catholic faith for those that attended, and it was excellent.

We went from a parish that literally overlooks, you could see, you could argue, or at least you can see it from the steps outside of the parish, you can see it’s right down the street from the Capitol building itself.

We went from one parish on East Capitol Street, passed by, not directly, but passed by the Capitol building, and went down to another parish, also on Capitol Hill, where amongst a lot of it’s history, many historical things have happened to the parish that we went to, but Robert Kennedy was an usher there. Then we went back.

So as I see what’s going on with the death of Mr. Floyd, and as I pray through it and discern through what should be done, first, I mourn, and I’m angry about what happened to Mr. Floyd.

I’m worried that those police officers that were there on the scene could allow that [to] happened or partake in what happened. I’m highly concerned about the need to end this kind of violence against any person.

You know, undressed violence is one thing, defense of self, defense of others, but when you’re unjustly taking someone’s life, when you’re depriving someone of the right to life, which is something we believe in very much at the Christ Medicus Foundation, there’s a problem.

It’s a violation of the person’s human dignity. It’s a violation of their civil and human rights, and I’m outraged by that.

But then, also, in seeing other things that have been happening in ways in which Mr. Floyd’s death has been co-opted by rioters and looters and other forces that, in my opinion, would only make the situation worse and only make it more likely that there’s going to be another black man, like me, who has to face police misconduct or police brutality, or some form of racism in the future. I wanted to step back and say, “Lord, God, we need you. We need you to heal hearts and minds.”

There’s been a history in the United States. We have the best country in the world. The overwhelming majority of law enforcement officers, whom I’ve worked with a fair amount of my career, particularly at two points in my career, are phenomenal people, law enforcement officers, phenomenal people.

But as I stepped back and looked for African Americans in particular, the images from the video from Mr. Floyd, it recalls all the times where there’s been police misconduct or police brutality in the ’90s and the ’80s and the ’70s and ’60s, and some of it really goes back to Reconstruction where, particularly, Southern police departments were working with white supremacist groups in the South. It recalls to mind a lot of police brutality toward African American men in particular, even in the North and the so-called liberal North.

So it hurts.

But the issue with racism is that, again, fundamentally, it’s sin. Racism is evil and as an equal opportunity defender, I’ve seen all different sorts of people and all different types of races act in a discriminatory way toward other people. No race or ethnic group has cornered the market in racism.

But as I look back throughout American history, I see that there’s been a lot of destruction, there’s been a lot of human carnage from the sin of racism and that it infects and it wounds both the person that is committing a racist act, and, in fact, it wounds the person that’s the victim of that act.

So there’s a need for those of us that are people of faith, there’s a need for those of us who are Christians to be engaged in the public square, yes. But also, to step back and ask God for mercy, ask for healing, and to make reparation for what we all have done.

We have all cast stones, we’ve all thrown stones. For us as Christians, we’ve all sinned, and we all believe that we have crucified the risen Lord. So let’s step back. Let’s, in humility, not in false equivalency, that’s important, but let’s step back and come together and say, “We have all failed here.”

Certain particular horrible, heinous things have been done in the United States to African Americans—a couple hundred years of slavery, a certain level of subjugation where, even after slavery, … a significant number of African Americans did not have meaningful freedom until at least the early ’60s.

So those are significant things that are different than what other ethnic and racial groups have experienced, very severe, also Native Americans, very severe deprivations. So those are much more severe than I think a lot of the other discriminatory and racist acts that have been committed toward other groups.

So that’s important to see the weight of it, but on a certain level, we’ve all failed in this area. I’ve seen it. We have to be honest about that.

Yes, slavery is the most severe instance of racism in the country’s history and I don’t think anything compares to it. You also think about what happened to the Native Americans, but we’ve all contributed to this environment in a particular way.

So can we come together as Christians, as people of faith, and repent and make reparation and call upon the mercy of God to heal the country, to heal the land?

Last thing I could say, Kate, onto this, and I’m going on a little bit long, but I don’t believe that someone whose family that moved here in 1917 or 1920, are they directly responsible for something that happened a hundred years before their family got here? No, of course not. But at the same time, … for those of us who are Christian, Scripture talks about the nation and the need to heal a nation.

So we are responsible on a spiritual level, on a spiritual plane I’m talking about, not on an economic or a policy level, that’s a little bit of a different conversation. But we’re responsible for the collective for the sins of our country, the sins of our nation.

So those of us who are very pro-life, of which I am, we repent and we ask God’s mercy for the sin of abortion, though I have never been involved with an abortion. Most of the listeners of this podcast I would think are all pro-life. But we ask for God’s mercy for things that we haven’t done because we are part of this country.

In the same way, I think it’s a time right now for us, Kate, to come together, and though we have not directly contributed to a lot of the ills of racism in our country—though some of us have, I know that I have not been perfect here—we can come together and ask for God’s mercy for the nation, for the country.

So whether it’s the life issue, particularly the unborn, whether it’s turning away from God, whether it’s the sin of racism and other issues, we can come together as a country recognizing we’ve all been imperfect in humility and ask God for mercy.

That’s something that every American can do. I think that’s something that we can do and it’s not political. We believe in faith and we believe in God, and we ask God to act. That’s more important in this country, perhaps now than any time, I would argue, maybe since the 19th century.

Trinko: You’ve touched on this somewhat, but when we were walking during this Rosary Walk, we passed a sign in someone’s front yard. In Capitol Hill, a lot of people had political quotes, signs in their front yards. This particular sign said something along the lines of, “Thoughts and prayers aren’t enough. You need action.”

My impression as we were walking was a lot of people were a little bit confused, which to be fair, I mean, you had someone holding a cross and then you had a lot of nuns and priests in full habit, which is not a site you see a lot in Capitol Hill.

But it also spoke to a broader thing that I’ve noticed in the past few years, where there seems to be a lot of hostility, probably more among people on Twitter than real Americans. I mean, to put them against each other, toward prayer in general, and just that it shouldn’t be part of it.

But you spoke so powerfully about the need to change hearts. What would you say if someone came to you and was just like, “Look, this was not an effective response to Floyd’s death?”

Brown: Right. So we are permitted to have many responses, and on some level, civil rights and the protection of human dignity has been much of my life’s work. Not all of it, but much of it. I mean, not even most of it, much of it. So there is a place for faith in all of this.

The long-term work that we needed to do in this country to protect every human life, to provide them the dignity that they deserve can only be done through love of God and love for neighbor because at a certain point, when you don’t like someone, and there’s a temptation to reject their humanity, you need something else beyond that. It’s the reality of God.

It’s not something that we’re imposing on someone, there’s a reality of a higher power in this country, in this world. So faith is fundamental because, ultimately, God is love and love is the strongest force in history.

As Martin Luther King [Jr.] would talk about, as we saw as a root to the abolitionist movement, that love can wash away the greatest division, the greatest hatreds. It’s not one or the other. It’s a false choice between prayer and action. I’m saying we need to do both. We need to pray and we need to act. We need to pray and we need to act.

So Saturday’s Rosary walk is not the response. It’s part of many responses to this.

I think, chiefly, prayer and speaking out, calling out for reform, and also coming together in peaceful demonstrations, peaceful protest, completely appropriate, but it needs to be peaceful. It’s got to be peaceful.

We have to reject those forces in the country, whether intentionally or unintentionally, that are fomenting violence, that are provoking the rioting, the looting, which seems to have calmed down.

We need to reject an effort to take the death of a black man, an unjust death, an unjust killing, reject the attempt to use this unjust killing of a black man as an opportunity to co-opt the civil rights legacy in the United States and further undermine human dignity. That’s very important.

So I’m not saying just prayer because I think that’s a cop out and I would say also, too, we as African Americans, and really all Americans, but particularly black folks who have felt this for a long time, we can’t wait.

We, as I was talking to a friend earlier last week, Kate, black men and women, black folks, Chicano, Latino, Hispanics, in particular, who have certain stereotypes that we deal with, we have to go out at night to go put gas in the car. We have to get up early in the morning. Maybe we want to go running and we want to do this. We want to do that. We want to live as productive, honest citizens.

On a certain level, we can’t wait for our hearts and minds just to change. We need to know that our life will be valued and protected each and every day.

And all Americans, regardless of color, should expect that all of our white brothers and sisters, African American brothers and sisters, Hispanics, everyone should believe that, everyone should be driving toward that. So we can’t wait.

So action, calling for action, calling for change, very appropriate, I would say absolutely necessary. But we also have to pray.

Particularly for us as Christians, we should have the spirit of God, not the spirit of the world and not let the worldliness, particularly a secular culture, infect those of us who are people of faith that know that it’s faith and works together.

Trinko: Right now we’ve talked a lot about prayer and policy and people are grappling over which policies might be right to adapt after Floyd’s death. The officers involved in his killing have been charged, so justice is hopefully moving in that direction. But you talked a lot about the human heart, and I think a lot of Americans right now are just really troubled to see that racism still exists in our country.

Do you have any advice for people on how to both examine your own heart and see whether maybe you have some troubling attitudes and also like, are there ways to be talking with friends and family that are helpful?

Brown: For Christians, and particularly Catholics, there’s something that is big within the Ignatian tradition of the examination of conscience.

I think it’s important for us to be as free as we possibly can, to examine our conscience over our lives, and just understand where we have fallen short or where we have missed the mark. Particularly, on this issue, in terms of, how do I see folks? And we’re all fallen people. When we fail, that’s part of the human condition.

But I believe everyone needs to examine their conscience and to be honest, to have the courage and the strength to be honest with themselves about ways that their heart needs to grow and really, and particularly, to forgive where needed in the name of God, to forgive those that have hurt you, … and to, if possible, if you can be in contact with folks, ask forgiveness for ways that you may have hurt them. The power of that is extraordinary. The power of that is absolutely extraordinary.

The deepest desire of the human heart is not survival, Kate, it’s love. The deepest desire of the human heart is to give and receive love. So that kind of healing and forgiveness amongst neighbors, amongst co-workers, amongst colleagues, amongst folks that we went to school with, within community, is vitally important.

Someone that I was talking to made a very good point. I think there’s a real need within all of this to listen to each other, to truly, truly listen and be aware that there’s so much that we do not know. I think that which we know is garbage.

If someone’s going out in revenge or an act of violence or rioting or looting, or seeking to act out in a way that is hateful, then that just has to be rejected, we just know that that’s not the way.

But as we seek to reflect on all of this, there’s a lot that each of us do not know. So the ability to listen to others—and I’m not talking about the media, I think there’s a lot of problems right now in the national media around covering all of this.

But I think the bigger thing is within your community, within your workplace, within your church, is to really seek to listen to those that are in your community that are of a different color and see what their perspective is. Hear them out, what are their personal experiences?

I think that, to just sit there and admit that, “Hey, I don’t know everything, I need to learn,” I think all of our hearts can grow, and I think that’s vitally important. That’s the long-term work of the healing of hearts. That’s vital.

Trinko: OK. Well, Louis, thank you so much for joining us today.

Brown: Thank you for the opportunity, Kate. I really appreciate it.