It’s a conversation many have had at least once in their life. A friend or family member shares that he or she is struggling with same-sex attraction. 

No doubt there are countless opinions on the most loving way to respond in these moments, but a new law in Canada mandates the response to be given. Affirm the same-sex attraction—or risk jail time. 

Yes, Canada’s “conversion therapy” ban requires parents, pastors, counselors, friends, and others to affirm a person’s gender identity, gender expression, or sexual orientation, or face jail or prison time. 

Canada has surrendered “to the political sphere to let them decide how we can counsel, how we can love our LGBT neighbors in the name of Jesus, and how to teach our own kids what a biblical view of sexuality and gender looks like,” says Jojo Ruba, the communications director for the Calgary, Alberta-based Free to Care. 

Ruba joins “The Daily Signal Podcast” to discuss Canada’s new “conversion therapy” ban and the possibility of the U.S. adopting similar federal legislation. 

We also cover these stories: 

  • A group of GOP lawmakers says the FBI is refusing to take responsibility for using counterterrorism resources “to target concerned parents at local school board meetings.” 
  • Consumer prices increase by 7.5% last month compared with a year ago.
  • Illegal immigrant deportations fell by 70% in 2021.

Listen to to the podcast below or read the lightly edited transcript: 

Virginia Allen: I am joined on the show today by Jojo Ruba, the communications director for Free to Care [a Canadian group] and a Christian faith leader and apologist with Faith Beyond Belief. Mr. Ruba, thank you so much for joining us today, all the way from Canada.

Jojo Ruba:
Well, thanks for having me, Virginia. Really glad to be here.

Allen: Well, this is an important conversation that we’re having and one that I think is on the minds of people, really, not just in Canada, but for certainly in America as well.

In America, there has been several proposed bills, such as the Equality Act, that would ban the practice of what is known as “conversion therapy.” And conversion therapy, we’re going to talk more about the definition, but can broadly be defined as any treatment, practice, or service that’s designed to change a person’s gender identity, gender expression, or sexual orientation. And on Jan. 7th, a conversion therapy ban took effect in Canada.

Mr. Ruba, I know that you have followed this legislation very, very closely. You’ve spoken with Canada’s political leaders about this bill. Can you just explain this bill a little bit further and what it actually does?

Sure. I think a lot of people, when they hear the term conversion therapy, they think of movies like “Boy Erased,” where people are sent to a camp and beaten with Bibles. And often it’s associated with Christians because Christians very much care about sexuality and gender, because God does. And God has given us a beautiful design for sexuality and gender.

And the thought process is, we need to make this a terrible practice—of harming children particularly, but even adults—criminal so that people won’t be tortured, just because they’re gay or they’re transgender. That’s the mindset, that’s the initial reaction that people have when they hear about conversion therapy.

The problem is that isn’t what was passed as a law in Canada. And in Canada, like the U.S., the federal government actually makes criminal law. So the states, the provinces, our states, don’t do that. And this is the first time it’s actually been criminalized.

And I can tell you, Virginia, in terms of what the precedent is here, is the strategy being used by those pushing for this is they’re arguing for one thing, the banning of, criminalization of torture, but they actually pass laws that do much more than that. And in fact, the word torture or coercion or even force is not even in the law that was passed.

So, what we actually have instead is a broadly defined law. As you said, that captures any kind of practice, treatment or service that would help someone reduce their non-heterosexual attraction or behavior, even if that person isn’t trying to change their sexual orientation. So, someone who’s wanting to reduce a gay porn addiction, or wanting to be faithful to their spouse, even the same-sex spouse and not want to engage in sexual activity outside of that marriage, because gay marriage, same-sex marriage, is legal here as well, they couldn’t get counseling to reduce that behavior, according to the wording and the definition of the law.

And so, as someone who’s followed this law, I can tell you the arguments being made to push for this law, that were made, and that are made to enforce this law started in 2015 when Ontario, our biggest province, passed their first conversion therapy ban in Canada. And it only affected children at that time. So, it’s been different provinces and territories.

And here in my province of Alberta, municipal governments have been passing laws using definitions of conversion therapy that are just as broad as the federal one.

And what’s happened, Virginia, interestingly enough, is that even though we’ve had these laws now, at least half the country had these similar kinds of laws before the bill, the criminal bill was passed, there has been zero people charged, or let alone convicted, under any of these laws, because at the end of the day, it’s not actually something that they can enforce because these laws are so, like I said, broadly worded even a conversation like we’re having now, if I were to publicize, say, my own personal story, or be able to publicize information that would encourage people to reduce their non-heterosexual behavior, that would be promoting conversion therapy. If I was promoting a service that helped people find that help and I could go to jail for two years.

Allen: So, you would be in violation of this new bill?

That’s right. So, when I actually got counseling from my unwanted non-heterosexual attractions, when I was a university student, I went to the staffer at a Christian club that I was part of at university, and she wrote down, I still remember it, a phone number for me of a local Christian counselor.

And that counselor wasn’t, like, the best. A lot of people at that time, 20 years ago didn’t know from the Christian community, how to handle sexuality issues very well. But I was very happy that I had someone to talk to, and that’s all we did. We prayed. We read the Bible. There was no electro-shock therapy. There was nothing like that.

And as a consenting adult, I was glad to have that conversation, Virginia. That conversation now would cause that counselor to go to jail for five years. And my friend who wrote the phone number down, she could go to jail for promoting conversion therapy for two [years].

Allen: Wow! It feels almost unbelievable to hear someone say that, that just the sheer fact of having a conversation when it sought out for a young man to go to a pastor or a counselor and, say, “I’m struggling with same-sex attraction, and I don’t want to be. Can you help me?” And for that adult’s hands to essentially be tied, really unbelievable.

Well, and that was the big change. So, it was really fascinating because the prior iteration of the bill, Bill C-6, actually excluded consenting adults from having at least free conversations. So, that would mean getting counseled by your priest or sitting down with your pastor to have a conversation. And obviously, this happens all the time. We talk to pastors all the time who have these kinds of conversations now.

And that was protected because the justice minister himself publicly stated the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which is like our Bill of Rights, would be very hard to, under that, for the government to get after consenting adults. Within a span of less than three months after our federal election, the government listened to the socialist parties in the Parliament and now included consenting adults in this bill.

And Virginia, that’s not even the half of it. They actually broke apparently their own law in passing this bill, because they rammed it through Parliament without any kind of public input. So, when they came back after the election, this was in the fall of last year, they reintroduced this bill, which was now Bill C-4, which had this inclusion of consenting adults being prevented from having conversations. And I always point out, by the way, as an aside, this actually harms LGBTQ-identified Canadians even more than anyone else, because it actually criminalizes the kind of conversations they’re allowed to have.

In this case, the government that was saying three months prior, “Oh, we can’t pass a law affecting consenting adults,” we had complete 180 pass this bill, and here’s really what’s challenging, the Conservative opposition party did not challenge it.

They said, “Well, we’ve already had this debate, so we don’t want to have this struggle in our own caucus. We don’t want to have to deal with this in terms of public attention. So, let’s just get this passed as soon as possible,” when they’re not supposed to do that, when this massive change of definition and who this bill affects had happened in the bill.

And what one Christian lawyer pointed out, Virginia, was this actually was a violation of the Liberal government’s own law, because they had just passed a law a couple of years ago saying that the justice department is required to come out with what’s called a charter statement, explaining what potential charter impacts, our rights, our Canadian charter rights, are going to be affected by criminal law.

And what’s happened is, this charter statement actually listed several clear violations potentially that this new criminal sanction has, but this wasn’t released before the vote in Parliament. It was actually released afterwards when the law had already taken place, has already been passed. So, that’s actually a clear violation of their own law.

Allen: I was really, really fascinated to see that it was a unanimous vote, that surprised me, because this is the third time that a bill like this came up for a vote. And obviously, the previous two, like you mentioned, didn’t pass, but then to see a unanimous vote in Canada—really, really interesting. Ultimately, who was behind this bill? What was the driving force behind the ban on conversion therapy?

Well, we can go all the way back to the activists here, actually in my home province. There’s a man here named Dr. Christopher Wells who has been and pushing for these kinds of laws in Alberta, where I live, just north of Montana, and he is an activist. He’s not a doctor, but he works in sociology, sexology as a university professor. And when he began to push for these laws, like I said, many of these laws, not all, but many of these laws were so broadly worded, it would capture all kinds of things we would do with church. And in fact, he specifically mentioned prayer. So, if I were to ask you to pray for me, because I struggled with the, say, same-sex porn addiction, to help reduce that same-sex behavior that’s non-heterosexual behavior, that is potentially conversion therapy, according to his understanding.

In fact, he testified at the city of Edmonton, where he’s at, and I was actually in the room. So, this is not secondhand information, Virginia. I was listening to him, that there was a conference, a Christian conference promoting conversion therapy in his city and had thousands of people attending it. And I was sort of scratching my head what that could that have been.

And it turned out, he was actually referencing a large Christian music conference that had nothing to do with conversion therapy. It did have a panel discussion where I was part of that, where people like myself shared our personal testimonies of coming to Christ out of an LGBTQ background. And that is what he considers conversion therapy. He compares that to torture, Virginia. And that’s what he’s been pushing across the country.

He managed to pass these laws municipally in our province, and now has taken these laws, and has taken these laws to pass it federally. So, I actually looked at 180 definitions of conversion therapy across the U.S. and around the world—places like Germany, and even places in Michigan, or Florida. And there has been not one governmental law that has defined conversion therapy as broadly as the one that’s been passed in Canada.

I’ve looked at all the medical definitions by the Canadian and American psychological associations. They do not define conversion therapy as someone simply wanting to reduce their non-heterosexual behavior or attractions. It’s always in the context of changing orientation. And whether or not you agree with that, there’s a whole conversation we can have with that. It’s simply dishonest to argue for one thing when you’re actually trying to pass something much broader.

Allen: Ah, so now, under this new bill in Canada, if an individual goes to their pastor and simply asks for prayer saying, “I’m struggling with same sex attraction, or gender dysphoria, can you pray for me?” And that individual sits with them and prays with them, are they at risk of going to prison for five years?

Well, if that prayer is to help reduce that attraction or behavior, the answer is absolutely yes. But here’s the challenge, and this is why really what’s happened here is the LGBTQ activists, not the community, there’s lots of wonderful people in the community, but the activists themselves have weaponized their arguments.

What they’ve done is create a massive chill effect, because these laws are all complaint-based. So, if someone else, say, that person getting the counseling were to tell their teacher, “Oh, my pastor counseled me. I’m so glad, I feel so much better now, because I know he’s helping me out,” that teacher can then go to the police and complain about the pastor. And the [Royal Canadian Mounted Police], in criminal law in Canada, must investigate it.

Allen: Wow! So, are you speaking with counselors, with pastors? I mean, it really sounds like individuals who normally have these types of conversations, have been put in a really impossible situation. What are they saying? What are they going to do?

Oh, Virginia, this is really the problem, isn’t it? Like I said, it’s going to be very hard to prove the kind of things that they’re saying in the sense of, I think the smart people who’ve put past this law don’t actually want it to go to courts, because they recognize just how clearly it violates the charter rights, especially of consenting adults.

So, what it’s done instead is caused a chill effect, a fear throughout the church. I know of one large church in my city where the pastor has said, if someone like me came to him for help, he would deny supporting me, even if it’s a member of his own church. That’s already happening.

Nancy Pearcey came up to speak. And she wrote a wonderful book [“Love Thy Body: Answering Hard Questions about Life and Sexuality”] that deals exactly with these issues. My understanding is, from reliable sources, we had pastors who had brought her up to speak, going through her speech and censoring parts of her presentation out of fear of a conversion therapy ban.

So, I would hearken back. And I know there’s an American audience I’m speaking to, ladies and gentlemen, this is the kind of stuff that these laws will do and why it’s so critical for us to oppose them in the right kind of way. What’s happening is what we’ve capitulated to the political sphere to let them decide how we can counsel, how we can love our LGBT neighbors in the name of Jesus, and how to teach our own kids what a biblical view of sexuality and gender looks like.

And here’s the point, Virginia … you asked about how we’ve been reaching out to pastors and church leaders. That’s what we’re doing now. And one of the key messaging that we’ve given them is that we cannot be afraid to love people enough to share them good news.

There was a sign, actually, in one of the municipal governments that we were working with to try to pass a better law in Lethbridge. And one of the protesters, the LGBTQ protesters actually had a sign that said, “ban conversion”—not “ban conversion therapy,” but “ban conversion.”

And at the end of the day, that’s what we have to recognize here. This loss specifically prevents us from teaching and sharing Jesus with people to say, “You know what? If you want to follow Christ, you have to change your behavior. You have to reduce behavior that is not God-affirming.” We can no longer do that for LGBTQ people, according to this criminal law.

Allen: Well, and Mr. Ruba, you’ve mentioned your personal story a little bit during this conversation, but could you just share why this whole argument, this whole situation, this bill is so personal to you?

Yeah. Well, thanks, Virginia. I have to tell you, I hate actually speaking about it because I have not talked about this at all for most of my life. But when I was in university, I was leading a Bible study group and starting to realize I was falling in love with one of the members of our group, but it was a men’s study group. And that was a problem. I’m a pastor’s kid, I’m a Christian. And I recognized there was something off in that, but understanding, too, that I needed God’s grace, and figuring out what that looked like.

So, when I went to see this counselor, as I mentioned, I talked to the staff worker at the Christian community that was part of, and that was very important, by the way, for those of you who are parents or young people who are university, make sure you have Christian community at a secular university. That will protect you from so much, because what happened, actually, Virginia, was I actually met at that same club, a guy who was a computer scientist, and he had grown up in a home where his dad was a backslidden Catholic, his mom was a backslidden Muslim, and he was very confused.

And so, he began to look at the different worldviews around him to see what he should believe in. And because he was a computer scientist, you know how they ought to check the codes if something’s not working? Well, that’s what he did. He checked the different ways that these different worldviews explained the creation of the universe, explained where we came from as human beings. Why do we have morality? These kinds of truths.

And he found out that Christianity, particularly evangelical Christianity, made the most sense and explained it the best. And that’s why he became a Christian. And I met him the beginning of [my university year.] And he introduced me to this idea and this question that “Am I a Christian because my parents are Christian, or am I a Christian because it’s true?”

And so, when I explored that, I realized Christianity is true, and I got really passionate about apologetics. And so, when I began to deal with my own same-sex attractions, I realized that these are really difficult things to deal with, but I cannot change the truthfulness of the fact that Jesus lived, died and rose again. And He has something to say about how I ought to behave in my life, because He happens to be the creator of this universe and of myself.

And so, when I went to see that Christian counselor, I came there with a commitment knowing that what I believed is correct, and that I ought to continue to believe that. I also learned, after a couple of counseling sessions, he wasn’t perfect. This was not going take away all my attractions right away, which is, I think what a lot of times people are confused about.

And if we had more time, I can walk you through what we teach on this topic now because, obviously several decades of thinking through this, we’ve realized there’s a lot we can fix on that front, where we’re not doing the kind of horrible things that they’re accusing us of doing.

I’ve seen Christian counselors over the years as I moved around and really was just blessed to know that. And I even remember walking from a counselor once, driving home and saying, this hasn’t really fixed everything that I’m dealing with, but I’m so grateful that I have that option that I can always come back.

Allen: Yeah. Having that choice is huge.

Exactly. And it’s my choice. Now, no one coerced me. No one forced me. My parents didn’t even know until last year, because last year, our city of Calgary was planning to have their own conversion therapy ban. And I was remembering, I remember that we each, anyone could come in and have a five-minute presentation to the City Council.

We were mobilizing all kinds of people, Virginia, to speak. We actually had the largest number of oral submissions on any issue in our province of over 4-1/2 million people at any municipal government until we had this one. We had the most, and it was like over three days, almost, of submissions. And as I was writing my submission, I was really struggling to, whether or not I ought to, include my own story. Because again, very few people actually knew about it, including my family, that I had gone through this kind of counseling.

But, you know what? I got a conviction, though, that as I was struggling with it, I was thinking, what will people think about me? Will they label me according to all of these identities on sexuality and gender that our culture is imposing on us, which is, by the way, this whole conversion therapy debate is forcing me to adopt a sexual identity that I choose not to. And I realized, well, well, wait a second.

Jesus, when he came to earth and the incarnation, came because he took on the identity of a hated race of people, was willing to take on their reputation so that he could save them, so he could help them. And as his follower, I get labeled all kinds of things, but at least if I could speak truth and show that you can have these attractions, but you don’t have to be those attractions. You can have homosexual attractions, but not identify as homosexual. That could be part of what I taught, that this was never my identity. This is something I’ve had; it is not something that I am.

And so, coming out, I guess, is the way they say it, in front of a City Council meeting on a conversion therapy bill is not the kind of thing most people want to do. But I remember going through it and getting texts from friends saying, “Really? This was true of you?” And not even knowing and thanking me for saying it.

And I have had to say, Virginia, I’ve been really blessed for the most part. Most Christians here have been so grateful to know that these stories exist, and that we can actually share them, because likely people in your own church have struggled with this and are looking for help, because this is what’s really insidious about this. All the surveys that are being done on conversion therapy here in Canada, survey people who still identify as gay.

So, one of the largest ones here surveyed people who went to gay bars, gay dating websites, who are part of gay advocacy organizations. And they claim 11,000 gay men have been tortured through conversion therapy in Canada. But again, if you look at the definitions of what it is, it’s not the same thing as they’re claiming, not torture for sure.

But if you’ve actually been helped by this counseling, like I have, you’re not going to appear on their surveys. And you probably don’t want to talk about it publicly. So, our stories are never heard in these debates and these surveys, and that’s one of the reasons why when I finally shared this, I realized whatever the cost, and I was thinking, “Gosh, am I going to lose my job? What do people say?” RIght?

I realized this is worth it, because there’s such a huge need [in] this next generation, according to Newsweek, of Generation Z just in December reported that 40% of young people identify as LGBTQ.

Thirty percent of churchgoing kids also identify as LGBTQ. And so, if the church doesn’t know how to deal with this in a way where we show grace and truth, then we’re going to have a much harder time, and these kinds of laws will be passed all around the country.

And just, personally, you know you asked a personal question. I realized something as I thought through, as a Christian, what I believe, because I accepted Christianity and know that it’s true and became a Christian because it’s true. But what I tell people, especially in light of my own struggles here, is that I stay a Christian because I know it’s good, that the love that God has for me, the love that God has for humanity is so much better than any kind of quote-unquote “love is love” argument the other side has.

And so, it’s critical for us now in our churches to teach, especially young people, that the biblical view of sexuality is good. It’s life-giving.

And if they don’t embrace that, the other side is so zealous about their view, because they think they’re the good guys, because they think they offer something better. And we really have to help our young people realize no, God’s design for sex and gender, beautiful. It actually helps complete us. It makes us whole, and even as a celibate, single man, I can speak to that to say, I know there’s a sacrifice the culture has required of me, but the sacrifice is also, as Jesus said, the burden is light because of what that Christ offers in the long run.

Allen: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being willing to tell your story, because I do think that, that’s really where change can begin with being honest and real about struggles that we have personally been through and having those really authentic conversations. Those are the conversations that actually, I think start to shift culture in really positive ways.

Agreed. Yeah.

Allen: What are people in Canada saying overall about this bill? Are people engaged? Are they concerned? Do they not care?

Well, you know what’s happened, I shouldn’t say ironically, but the people who are in the know are asking us questions about what they need to do. So, that’s great. Part of me says, why didn’t you ask sooner so you could have helped us fight the law? But at the very least, now they’re starting. And our No. 1 concern in five, Virginia, at Free to Care, is that churches will get used to this law and not bother with it, or comply with it and not realizing there’s no way you can comply with the law that prevents you from evangelizing anybody.

And that’s part of the shift, the push that we need to have in our churches. Most Canadians are happy with it because we have such a limited media that is so myopic, it only talks to themselves. They can’t even fathom why anyone would be opposed to it.

So, what’s happened now though, just breaking news, is the conservative leader who helped push for a unanimous vote in the first place, who is not an ally at all to what we’re doing, he actually might be overthrown. He might lose his job because of how he handled that issue. Apparently, he bullied, and this is the reports, I don’t know 100% sure, but there was reports of bullying of his own members of Parliament to force them to not oppose the bill. And that’s why there was unanimous consent.

There was a one member of Parliament who was the spearhead fighting this bill, and they managed to have this bill passed when he was in Europe at a conference so he couldn’t oppose it.

Allen: OK. So, then given that and given the untraditional way that this bill was pushed through, is there momentum to overturn it? Is that a reality, possible?

Not in terms of the government apparatus. However, there is momentum, I think the Christian community is realizing something that it was Greg Coke, one of my favorite Christian apologist in the state said, “It isn’t that we, as the church, are getting involved in politics more, it’s that the political world is getting involved in the affairs of the church.”

If they can tell us how to counsel our own church members, which is what this law does, that’s a huge violation of the charter rights of Canadians. Look, this bill even prevents a parent from talking to her 5-year-old child about gender identity, unless that parent affirms that child’s gender confusion.

So, if a 5-year-old girl says, “I think I’m a boy,” and the mom says, “Can we take you to the pastor, to a Christian counselor?” And even if the 5-year-old says, “Yes, I’d love to talk to the pastor,” and they go through counseling where they reduce that feeling of gender confusion, that is now conversion therapy. And the parents can go to jail for aiding and abetting conversion therapy.

Allen: So, then what’s your message to people in America? Because I think we do often see that sometimes the things that are happening in Canada or in Europe, it’s sort of a matter of time before we see some of those things take place in the U.S.

Well, I’ve always thought, and you probably figured out, a lot of Canadians know much more about American politics than the other way around.

Allen: Yes, that’s accurate.

But I’ve always thought Canada’s sort of like the canary in the coal mine. So, whatever happens here will likely happen in your country in the next five to 20 years, sometimes even sooner, because the activists, especially because we speak the same language, they speak culture, we have the same similar cultural values, many of the Americans come in and work for politicians and vice versa.

The messaging has to be, you need to prepare yourself. We have a Christian so-called organizations that are part of the LGBTQ movement that are actually training Christian leaders to infiltrate their own denominations, to make them pro-LGBT. I’ve attended a seminar where this happened. So this is, again, not secondhand information.

I talked to a principal at a Christian school, one of the largest where I’m from, and when they had a gay-straight alliance club forced on them, and these clubs are political clubs promoting theological views of homosexuality that is contrary to Scripture, he didn’t realize until this club was legally forced on them that half of his own teachers were now pro-LGBTQ.

And when I say pro-LGBTQ, I’m talking about not the people, I’m talking about the theology that says, my sexuality defines me for who I am. It’s the most important thing about me, which is not biblical. There’s no way you can be a Christian and believe that something else needs to define you. That’s idolatry. So, the kind of teaching we offer, as you mentioned, our website is, but we also have something called the, where we actually go through what the nature of identity is from a biblical perspective.

And if I could just summarize it really well, we would love to be able to bring this training to Americans because it’s so critical to prepare your people now. The key line that we teach there, Virginia, is to really realize, the Scripture actually talks about identity. One of the best examples about that is the apostle John and the Gospels, when he referred to himself as the disciple that Jesus loves. And I thought, wow, what a great identity. He’s defining himself by the love God has for him.

And it’s in clear contrast to the culture, because in a culture that says, we’re defined by who we love, John reminds us, we’re defined by who loves us. And that’s one of the key things that saved me from going down the deep end, was because I realized whatever my attractions are, whatever I’m feeling, God’s love for me is so much more important in defining my identity.

And when you couple that, and here’s a little factoid that we’d love to share: The idea of sexual orientation itself is the social construct. Prior to 1860, the word heterosexual referred to people who were promiscuous with the opposite sex. And the word homosexual was created as a way to fight laws against homosexual practice in Germany. And these are gay historians and allies who are talking about this, this is not controversial.

In other words, we have adopted this mindset that we have to categorize people based on their sexual orientations or sexual identities. We, as the church, do not have to do that. And we have to remember that Jesus never loved identities. He loved people.

And that’s a distinction that we need to instill in our young people who are coming to us saying, “I love my best friend who’s a girl.” This is a conversation I actually had, a 12-, 13-year-old girl at a Christian school. “I love my best friend who’s a girl.” And you can see her struggle with that phrase. And I said, “You know, that’s OK. What kind of love is that?” And she’s like, filial love.

And we had just talked about the nature of love before, and you could see the relief on her face because she recognized she can now put appropriate label on the relationship she had, same-sex relationship she had, and affirm that same-sex intimacy is not wrong, it’s actually part of our design. God made us to need love from people of the same sex and the opposite sex. How do we know that? Because we all have a mom and dad.

And so that’s the kind of narrative we have to create in the church to help us give a different way of thinking about sexuality than our culture does, because as long as we leave that as a vacuum, that vacuum’s going to be filled by people hostile to the message of Christ.

Allen: Jojo Ruba, the communications director for Free to Care in Canada. If you want to learn more or follow Mr. Ruba’s work, you can look him up and look up the work of Free to Care at And also again, the other website is Mr. Ruba, thank you so much for your time.

It’s been my pleasure, Virginia. Anytime.

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